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The Trumpeter Sees Purgatory


Early in 1992, "The Trumpeter," (Father Andrew C. Wingate) while overseas, was taken to Purgatory and experienced the most painful sufferings.

"The Trumpeter" Speaks:

1. "I hope I never forget this, because I never want to go back!!!

St. Michael had taken me to Purgatory before, but only as an observer, never too close, stopping at a certain point. This was not like other times as we traveled lower and lower, going down, deeper and deeper, as I had never seen or known before.

I wondered, "Had I died?" No, I seemed to know clearly that I had not. Putting to rest many questions and opening to tidal waves of shock, dismay, with more and more unanswered question. One thing was perfectly clear...I was in Purgatory!"

2. Twelfth Level of Purgatory:

"Instinctively I counted the passing levels, afraid of stopping all the while the next level is worse than the previous one.

Traveling onward I asked my host if all of this was for a particular reason: for this or that general purpose. But, no reply!

The great warrior prince of Heaven only said, "Learn from all of this," as then my greater fear was being realized! I was going to "the" bottom, the twelfth level of Purgatory and the fourth level in to hell, which St. Michael didn't enter completely when he dropped me from his grasp. I fell what seemed to be miles, and almost endlessly into sorrow!

Despair sought to rule me, body and soul, though instinctively I clung to "hope," praying that would end soon.

There are thousands and thousands of demons and devils; thousands and thousands of Souls. (All the Holy Souls are naked.)"

3. Appearance of the demons:

a) "The imagination cannot put together the type of non-human or animal forms that demons will take. I am not referring to devils, the fallen angels, rather those souls who wanted hell for all eternity, rather than bow to the One Eternal Love - God!

Devils and demons alike seemed to prefer the images of dogs, goats, some apes, reptiles, and some insects. Demons seemed to distance their once human form. I have always understood from my angel that the reason is because it was with their bodies they refused to do any penances and embraced sin so eagerly."

b) "In Purgatory's agonies, one of the most distressing things was that it became extremely difficult to discern between imagination and what was real. That was because the evil ones could put so much into our minds. And those thoughts would consume us instantly!

I realized quickly there was no place to hide. Not even our own shame by having clothes! Upon the forehead was a mark that felt like a brand accompanied with two on the right hip.

Interiorly or instinctively I knew what the various symbols stood for, as they declared my state of life, the types of graces given as well as refused.

For example: Each person that was responsible for other people had a "candle" upon his forehead. If that person was a "religious" as well, there would be a 5-point star. A priest would have a seven pointed star within a circle. Highly educated people usually had what looked like a two sided sword while government leaders would have the image of a plow. Parents who were married would have a hammer with handle pointed down; although the unmarried had the handle pointing upwards."

c) "Some devils took the form of a monkey-like creature, with bulky heads, large mouths full of small thorn-like teeth. Their bodies were very thin, almost only skin and bones. Where there should have been arms were leathery bat-like wings with claws on the end of what appeared to be long fingers. Each of these creatures displayed horribly deformed and disgustingly large genitals.

Most of the apelike (lacking a better name) creatures varied from 6" x 15" (6" tall with a 15" wingspan) to 12" x 30". They flew in swarms like mosquitoes, biting, attacking their prey, with unbelievable fury, clawing and biting, as if to devour their victims."

d) "The devils would change their form at any time to add to the confusion. Some were covered with filth while they or others mocked the female form. It's a shame to think of the various ways of which people can and do commit sins through our passions. We never think of how much the sins of passion debase the mind and deform the soul's beauty.

As I recall many of these things I saw, it is now easier to have compassion than it was at the time."

e) "The intensity of the filth was beyond comprehension. As was in that part of purgatory, the various kinds of filth, dirt, decay, and corruption boggles the mind, as well as deceptive in its nature. Because, things were not as they appeared!"

f) "I remember the appearance of one hellish creature, which I must admit frightened me, was mostly the body of a snake with large bull-like horns and bat wings with claws."

4. Color of demons:

"The color of things were never consistent. There were bright, dull, glaring, distinct, as well as blurred colors.

Some were iridescent, glowing with a strange light that would make me feel off-balanced and disoriented"

5. Smell of demons:

"To try to describe the many smells would be impossible for me to do but I can use one word that would cover them all. Putrid! The smell was choking, making it very difficult to breathe, even causing cramps in my stomach, they were so foul."

6. Weights:

"I saw some people who carried or dragged weights. A bishop had a large iron belt around him with a chain attached to it. At the end of the chain was a huge weight consisting of books, sacramentals, and bags of coins. It was not uncommon to see individuals laden with the weights of things that symbolized both obsessions as well as omissions. When the bishop ran with the group being chased by the demons, he kept up with them, despite his carrying the huge weight."

7. Holy Souls Crying Out:

"The greatest defender of the Poor Souls imprisoned here (by their own will) is St. Michael.

Few are those who respect the vast powers of this great Angel of Heaven. He is like a jailer, holding the keys, only waiting for a reason to release many or only a single soul!

People should be taught from childhood to pray to St. Michael, making offerings of prayer and penances for the increased ability (through graces earned) to intercede and protect us from the hidden snares of the devils.

Though our guardian angels are the most powerful defenders that we have both physically and spiritually, St. Michael has the powers from God to subdue and calm the elements, both physically and spiritually. And there is the fact that in half of Purgatory, our guardian angels cannot be with us.

The reader must realize that in Purgatory, the spiritual is physical! Don't try to figure it out and try to find an explanation as how this can be.
I remind the reader, Our Lord told how Purgatory exists in His parables. There are the countless testimonies given by people brought back to life, warning against the pending sorrows for sins unatoned for! But, people want to deny history as a fabrication of the "Catholic Empire," inventing additional ways to keep people spiritually enslaved.

Ignorance and stubbornness keep so many good people from seeing the truth when it is put in front of them.

Continuing on, the terror felt was the worst condition of all. The vast majority of sufferings were caused by the individuals' own consciences. By our sins, we are our own reward or punishment!"

8. Terror of the Holy Souls:

"No matter the depth of Purgatory to which a soul descends, it is directed and led by clear and perfect honesty of conscience. At our deaths, we are compelled by the Divine Justice of God to expose and weigh every good and evil balanced on the scale of Divine Justice. Were it not for the Divine Mercy and the vastness it contains, our plight would be almost hopeless.

When we are exposed to the condition of our immortal souls, we will respond only two ways. If we are honest, we will see the full extent of that which we can atone to make ourselves pure to enter eternal life.

It is those who will refuse to accept accountability of themselves that cast themselves into hell to defy the Divine Love That seeks our humility to atone for our offences against God and man!"

9. False Appearances by Demons:

"A most wrenching experience is when devils would appear as relatives or close friends. These counterfeit images cause a great frustration and anguish like nothing else could ever do. One had to be very observant because the false images did not have the marks on the hip and forehead. Why they didn't or couldn't, I don't know."

10. Description of the Lower Level:

"Within this tomb of horrors, very little was consistent. Things would change again and again! Temperature was one of the most crippling elements because of the speed with which it would change drastically from one extreme to another.

The environment was an enemy in itself. And all the while one knew exactly what each torment was purging from his soul. That in itself was a minute consolation. It represented hope and reassurance of an eventual liberation.

I must impress the constant grief that weighed so heavily upon the mind and emotions. This in itself was a burden that in this life would be debilitating! I think it would be so great as to crush and destroy any thought or desire other than those of overwhelming regret.

It is truly indescribable how God in His infinite Mercy for His creatures endeavors to return our wandering hearts back to His Love.

One of the great signs of hope is a visible light that all can see. The perpetual light of St. Michael, guardian and defender of the poorest of souls! Should St. Michael not be guardian, the demons and devils would release a great torrent of tortures upon their helpless victims. The reason being is because of the hate for those who will eventually depart from this place where the damned have chosen in place of the Infinite Love.

When I describe terrain and surroundings, keep in mind - nothing is in our understanding of proportion! Things that would, in the world, be the normal height for something like a tree, would be of another proportion. Maybe half or even twice the size. A mountain would look like any other mountain,'s only 10 feet high. In turn a chair might be 1 foot high or maybe 5 feet high to the seat.

As you read on about the environment, the descriptions are kept as simple as possible because, I know I could never say enough. I'm sure people's imagination can fill in the blank sufficiently."

11. "Journey Description:

a) Low mountainous area with jagged rocks.
b) Paths covered with hot, black, sticky, bitumen with great puffs of burning gas.
c) Huge mountainous area with lower hills.
d) Sensation of walking on slippery plastic.
e) Everyone urgently trying to get over the mountains at the same time. The need to dig your hands and toes into the surface to get traction.
f) Hours to get over a few yards.
g) Huge, long, plain covered with hot tar which stuck to the feet - fumes burning the eyes.
h) Demons behind trap doors, assaulting those they caught.
i) Pain from acid-like burns to the skin.
j) Sudden bursts of freezing air which cramped your muscles.
k) Open area where intense sound levels hurt the ears.
l) Extremely sticky boiling bitumen to walk through.
m) Sulfur smell and countless other smells.
n) Rolling two-meter-high rises covered with rotting vegetation.
o) Overhead became lower and lower, with pointed spikes projecting, causing you to bend and crawl to avoid injury.
p) Acid river where sexual sins were punished by physical torments.
q) Demons guarding the bridge across the acid river.
r) Illusory bridge to a track - not knowing if you were taking the correct steps.
s) Cliffs, with cubicles set in them, crammed with people wearing chains around their necks. These souls are being yanked out by the chain and are being ripped apart by the demons, then thrown back into the cubicles for the whole process to be repeated, over and over again."

12. Devils Attacking Holy Souls.

"One devil, about 20 feet tall, had huge feet and walked over the crowds, squashing souls. Another devil rapidly passed through the crowds creating a tornado effect which threw people everywhere. Yet another demon had a long skewer, with jagged prongs, and ran through the hordes, skewering about forty at a time and then dumping them down a hole which had smoke and ash coming out of it."

13. Saint Michael and the Angels.

"Every few hours an Angel would come down and lift up a soul, under the arms, and take him up to a level where his own Angel Guardian would taken him to where a light in the darkness would appear. They would go into that light. All the souls would stop to gratefully watch the soul go out of Purgatory.

The Trumpeter's Angel said to him, "There are only three things a person has to achieve to have his Angel to intercede for him in all things.

a) Purity maintain purity of heart and mind
b) Prayer unite with them in constant prayer
c) Humility as a constant expression of love for God and man
Always persevere to obtain these objectives.

The Angels have these divinely given attributes:
a) Purity of Nature
b) Humility of Nature
c) Constant Adoration of God"

14. Holy Souls Relieved By The Blessed Virgin Mary:

"The Blessed Virgin would appear what seemed to be every couple of days. Everything stopped. The demons would scuttle away and hide. All the Holy Souls would stop, collapse from exhaustion, and rest. None would close their eyes, just gaze patiently, knowing it would all start again. All the heat, pain, and smell of Purgatory, and stickiness of the ground, went. Our Lady's coming brought freshness during these 15 - 30 minutes. It was when the Angelus was being said on Earth.

There was a long sigh. It came from Our Lady. She was grieving because She had to leave. Our Lady knows that Her presence is a relief and a blessing."

15. The Trumpeter's Reason For Experiencing Purgatory:

a) Procrastination in carrying out God's Will.
b) To purge me of any attachment to Earthly desires.
c) To experience the actual pain and suffering, and to preach against sin and the results of sin in Purgatory, and to help give a greater understanding of the results of sin with the failure to repent and atone.
d) To give me a greater sympathy for the needs of the Holy Souls.

16. Period of Suffering:

a) St. Francis of Rome said, "For all forgiven mortal sin, an average of seven years purging and suffering takes place."
b) The extent of suffering varies according to the amount, and nature, of the sin.
c) Father Mumford's "Treatise on Charity Towards the Departed" gives examples of periods of suffering based on human logic.
d) Scripture says, "The just man falls seven times a day."
e) Let us say we say we commit ten venial sins each day. The 'score line' would read thus: One year: 3,650 faults, 10 years: 36,500 faults, 20 years: 73,000 faults.
f) Delete half by reparation, i.e. - the balance is 36,500.
g) If the period in Purgatory is calculated as: one hour of atonement for each fault, 36,500 such transgressions will entail a total of 4.16 years.
h) If the expiation required is calculated at one day instead of one hour, the total period spent in Purgatory for the number of infractions is 100 years!!

NOTE: The seer, "The Trumpeter," was in Purgatory for two hours normal time, but it was 336 hours in Purgatorial time, equaling 14 days.

Father Andrew Wingate: "As I record these things, I must stress to the reader (or listener), that all of these things are given by Heaven for the sole purpose that souls should learn to love God more. Seek to love God more. In whatever graces, talents, and skills that God has given them. Whatever your crosses or sorrows, try to remember that we must return our lives back to God first, giving all things to God first. I am trying also at this time to begin with these recordings to help people understand how many ways the Divine Mercy works and intercedes for souls in all shapes and fashions and in all manners of daily life. For many years now, about fifteen, our Lord has occasionally called me to come and listen to Him. And sometimes He will in return come and even awaken me at night, sit on the side of the bed, and tell me,

"I need to speak to you, for you to learn these things that I am to say and give them to other souls to they will understand My love for them."

This is one of those times. I'm recording a conversation, of which I know I'm not worthy of having had or received. In my experiences, with this I am recording for you to learn from, I receive from it the blessings of which God has for me in my obedience to the request of which God has made of me. All else is for you the reader and the listener. To seek to understand also how God is speaking to you. It does not matter what your age is, whether you're male or female, or adult or a child, what your occupation is, or what is your national origin; these things apply to all of us. This evening our Lord called and asked that I should sit and converse with Him on the subject which He chooses. so I come before our Lord in the Eucharist, and I see that He comes directly out of It or It comes with Him, which I do not know. But He is there. Our Lord comes from the Holy Tabernacle on the Altar here in our chapel. He comes forward and sits here in the pew. He does not come as a majestic king, with awesome powers threatening souls. He comes as a gentle conveyor of Love, Compassion, and Mercy.

Our Lord begins as He says: "I address to you, My son, My brother, this My gift I give to the world. It is a combination of many treasures and loves of the Almighty God, of the Holy Triune God. Yet, first of all it is always Love. Here in My Presence, I am entirely in the Gift of My Body and Blood that I continue in My Infinite Love, offering in atonement for all sins. Constantly continuing, never ending. The one sacrifice that I began on the Cross, I continue and I shall continue, My Priesthood shall continue, in this offering for the salvation of souls; making all things new and acceptable to God, our Father Almighty. I give this in Love always, My Love cannot refuse it.

"A great sorrow is approaching, that is greater than any I have held in My Heart before. As I cling to the Love of My Mother, My greatest Love, I look upon mankind with a great sorrow, knowing that the Divine Justice, equal to the Divine Mercy, is raging as a great storm to come upon sin and those who have clung to it; because of their tastes for the lusts of the world.

"I rest here in My Presence, waiting for the children of My Father to come, for the children of My Mother to come. As She is here with Me to console My Heart, I console Her in Her Journeys throughout the world seeking all to return to our Father in Heaven.

"My Mother has been refused, rejected and dejected throughout the world, even by those who profess openly again and again that She is their Mother, She is their love.

"It has been foretold in the prophecies and Holy Script and even by the Saints of My Holy Church, My Bride must suffer, My Church. She must suffer to be purified and she must suffer to be glorified. She must appear to be destroyed as evil sought to destroy me as I walked upon the Earth preaching the Good News of the salvation of mankind. My church will be persecuted to a degree never seen before as evil has reached a height that was never before on Earth. She shall suffer and be persecuted. She has been judged already in this scourging soon to carry the great cross upon Her Calvary. Where She shall be crucified, tormented and mocked, and believed to have died and to be destroyed. But, I remind you by the Holy Script, Moses was told and instructed amongst the Levites and Priests to constantly offer atonements for their sins and for those of the people that they were to live upon trust. Their reward would be that of the glory of God. Yet as before, many in the world today have chosen to find their securities and their rewards in the things of this Earth."

Father Wingate: "Lord, how is it that all of our priests and all of the people, in all of this time that has passed, seem to have forgotten what is the core and the essence of Your Teachings, with all the customs that have been developed and given to us by God by the Holy Spirit to strengthen our Faith? How is it that we have become so distracted? And what are we to do?"

Our Blessed Lord: "Look here upon this Altar. In its center is the Tabernacle gathered around by My Saints, holy images of those who have loved Me and intercede for you. What has been forgotten is their presence with Me here in the Tabernacle of My Abode upon Earth; here where I rest in the Immaculate conception of My Mother."

Fr. Wingate: "My Lord, who do You refer that Your are resting here in the Immaculate Conception? I was wanting that You would help us to understand why we have drifted so far from the essence of what You are teaching? Even among the different Rites, which I know throughout the world are all valid, as in the different cultures the Holy spirit has inspired devotions to God, to the Angels and the Saints in particular ways because it is in the minds and hearts of the people, You have responded to those things, but how is it tat even among all these things, there is something that You refer to that is forgotten? How can this be? What is it that we have forgotten?"

Our Blessed Lord: "My priests, My brother, they have forgotten My Divine Presence. My Divine Presence made possible here on the Earth by My Immaculate Mother. As the first Eve made way for the fall of Adam, the New Eve has made way for the rise of the New Adam, for the Saviour. And I rest within Her Immaculate Nature, for God has in His Pleasing and His Wisdom, chosen to bless where He chooses. It is God Who chose Moses to lead His people. It is God Who chose Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Isaiah, and John. I chose My Apostles. I sent My Apostles out two by two, and I sent My Disciples out also by twos. In My ministry, preparing for the salvation of souls, bringing the glad tidings of Love of God for mankind, I prepared and build the foundation for My Church. If man, who thinks he is so wise, can give laws to govern himself and protect and preserve his governments, who should he think that I am such a fool that I did not establish laws and means to protect and preserve My church as a One Church? In many governments the people will rebel even at times against a good government. And sometimes a government may have corruption in it by the human element and it splinters and breaks into other bodies and societies.

"My Church is still My Bride on Earth as it has been from the beginning as She has consoled Me over the centuries as I have consoled Her. Yet, the human element, by free will, is not always pleasing to God and leads many souls away from the truth, away from My One True Church; misleading many souls to forget that God is with them, that with the Father is the son and the Holy Ghost. And that We dwell within Our Tabernacle of gold, Our Tabernacle of Love. We dwell upon Earth, and the only place of where We know We can be loved, to be given to souls who seek to love God. here in My Presence in My body and Blood, My soul and My divinity I rest within the Heart of My Immaculate Mother, just as I had rest within Her Arms, within Her Womb, as a Child in Bethlehem. I am the same, resting within Her Love, and She, My Mother most Pure continues to give Her only son to all of mankind for the salvation of souls, to be loved, and to be ridiculed, to be persecuted, and hated. Sought after for Love and to be sought after in hate, which causes her great joy with great sorrow and anguish.

"My Mother, Who has shared in My coming into the world and who has shared in all My Love for souls has shared in the Redemption of souls. She has mediated from the beginning, as in My public life, as Holy Scripture records.

"I chose to show to the world (that first and foremost) all that I give to mankind I give to Her first. Just as she asked, that out of her Love, that I should console the young couple at Cana, in the miracle of the water into wine as simple a thing as this was. I do all for the Love of souls for My Immaculate Mother first for She is the Heart most Pure, She is the Love most consoling, and the arrogance of man cannot stop this. The hard headedness and stiff-neckness of man cannot stop this. it is only evil's continuance to want to separate My Immaculate Mother from My Most Sacred Heart of which i will never let occur. Yet, what has been forgotten within My holy Church and throughout the world today, forgotten by many pious and good souls, but not by evil. There cannot be a separation from My Immaculate Mother and My Most Sacred Heart; and this is what evil tries to bring. This is what has brought so many souls away from the cofit of graces, leaving them to yearn for a transcending Faith and Divine Graces. Because of prejudice and human weakness and self love, they have deprived themselves from Infinite Love from My Most Sacred Heart. And here as My Apostle Paul has described and stated by the grace of the Holy Ghost and His Light, here we have and here is the Presence of God, we have "Him" in this Bread and in this Cup. This is what is forgotten and fought. I have promised to My Mother, and I promise now to you, all who go into the abode of Her Heart, I shall not let them leave unconsoled and unenlightened, nor alone. All shall be freed of their burdens and sorrows who enter into the Immaculate Heart of My Mother; to bend their knee before God, seeking God first. As I shall take all of these things to My Father, and all that is asked of My Immaculate Mother (within the abode of Her Heart), She shall make it good, pleasing and holy before God. And by He Love, all shall be done that is asked of Her. For I shall defend the truth of the Immaculate Conception and I shall defend the undefiable truth of Her as Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix of all graces. This is by God's Will, not by man's. I did not need your cooperation to create you but you must cooperate in your own salvation, because you have your free will. You have the gift no animal has. You have to soul no other animal has. No creature has the gift that you have. You have the gift of My Love and the gift of My greatest Treasure, and this is My Immaculate Mother. She is My joy, She is Our Love. And We give He to you, but We do not give Her to be harmed and denied."

Fr. Wingate: "Lord, is it really so true that there are all that many that are trying to separate our Lady or the Angels and Saints from being recognized in Your Divine Presence? I know that for centuries now there have been so many who want to dispute Your Divine Presence in the Eucharist. And many miracles have been recorded and documented by both Catholics and non-Catholics, believers and non-believers. And yet so many times those things are pushed under the rug and denied, so that those who are unfortunate in their protesting faith fail to have the opportunity to see It and have the opportunity to, maybe, be converted or understand Your great Love, by knowing these things. What are we to do? How are we to respond? And how are we to react?"

Our Blessed Lord: "In this manner, you will do these things. I have called all of you here for an exact reason and a purpose. The least among all. By none is there an exception, other than by My Mother you have been given each an exceptional desire to love Her and to serve me and to love your God and to be willing to defend the love that God gives to you and to all souls.

"So this I ask of you and I command of you. More will come into the abode of My Immaculate Mother's Heart. Retreat here always. And for those who do not yet know, plead for them. Plead for those who suffer and plead for those who do not know My Divine Mercy. And plead for those who have yet not learned of the Great and Infinite Love of My Immaculate Mother for all souls. By this I will send My Servants, My Angels, throughout the world and I will call them, every one, to come and be within the abode of My Immaculate Mother, to come within Her Heart. This is not a calling that is new, but i restore it by My presence upon the Holy Altar of Sacrifice. As My Mother told the children in Fatima when She revealed Her Immaculate Heart and of the Great Flames of Love that came from Her, they say and understood that She is the abode of God and from Her comes the purifying flames of Love. And that Love shall be so sweet for those who seek It. It shall be bitter for those who reject it. Yet sweet it will be as they affirm in their hearts to repent and to turn away from their weaknesses and the sins in their lives. Sins against God, against all of His creation, His Angels, His Saints, against My Mother, against other souls and all of mankind. you must have charity always in your hearts. If, what you do, is not for the love of other souls, abandon it. Give from your excess to all who are in need, according to their need.

"But here in this abode of My Mother's Love all who come seeking shall find all that they ask. For My Mother shall fill their hearts with consolement, with her Love that is in the Tabernacle of God. My son, My brother, remind all that before coming to the Presence of God, repent for their sins, confess your sins in word, to atone for them and never to commit those sins again.

"Again and again, repeat to them how evil only wants them to forget God and choose your luring tastes of this world; of which I do not take away from them and neither will god My Father nor the Holy Spirit. They will lose this taste only when they have affirmed in their hearts to dwell only in the Love of God. That is the purifying fires of My Love, consuming the Heart of My Immaculate Mother. And as She has told you, as you have sought to feed from Her Immaculate Heart and drink from Her consoling tears, She shall give to you an infinite hunger for My Most Sacred Heart.

"Continue to bless souls and pray for them, My Priests. Pray for them with honest and great love, for it is the salvation of souls I am seeking and it is your labor in this harvest to bring them to this salvation. Increase intercessions, increase prayer and increase charity above all things. Have patience as I have patience for you and for all and extend this Love and Charity, which comes from this abode of My Immaculate Mother, for all of mankind."

Fr. Wingate: "Lord, will You help us to understand how these things are going to change or affect our conditions in the world?"

Our Blessed Lord: "Shortly I will. Return to the project I have given you and I will continue with this, our discussion, again later. As I bless you, and bless all of the works of My Mother and all good souls. Blessing them in the Name of the Triune God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Be at peace, My brother. Pray for the salvation of souls, love My Mother and all souls."

Fr. Wingate: "Our Lord gently gets up, He smiles, and as He returns to the Sanctuary, His Angels seem to gather around Him in such as I am unable to understand or see where He is gone. The Angels only consume the Sanctuary, as the Holy of Holies that It is. They remain there in praise and glory to God as I must return now to my duties. God bless all of you. I will continue all of these things as our Lord or Heaven gives them."

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